Harry Turtledove Message Board

Steven posts on 8/9/2007 12:31:28 AM Hey guys why can't you just stop picking on Gizzi? If there's anyone here that deserves your attitude, its that kule person why continuously pick on gizzi? just shows what character you have.
Makkabee posts on 8/9/2007 12:09:07 AM Gizzi, I was once in your shoes -- convinced an HT series wasn't done because of obvious loose threads. The Gerin the Fox novels take place in a bronze age fantasy setting where the tech is Homerian but the political situation resembles western Europe after the collapse of Roman authority or the galactic rim during the decline of Trantor's empire in Asimov's Foundation series. The last book, Fox and Empire, resembled Belisarius's invasion of Italy or Bel Riose's attack on the Foundation in the first half of Foundation and Empire.

Given HT's obsession with technological change in fantasy settings and the way his story mirrored the first half of the Foundation trilogy I was sure there had to be more. He had to be planning to introduce iron to the world, it was the next big technological breakthrough and it would change everything. Plus we hadn't had a character like the Mule show up yet.

Well guess what? It's been nine years and we haven't had any more Gerin books. Sometimes series end even when you have loose ends and obvious ways to continue. Can HT keep going with TL-191? Yes, as long as he doesn't destroy the world he's left the option open. Must he? Stop insulting our intelligence and embarassing yourself by pretending it has to happen.

Jack posts on 8/8/2007 9:43:17 PM Wow, Gizzi . . . you really think every single character who ever gets mentioned is destined to be President. The Republic of Vietnam had nothing on your little fantasy world when it comes to rapid succession. Why is Dewey stepping down? You neglected to mention that. I assume it's because you realize you've declared so many people are Presidency bound that if you give all of them a full term the back log will continue until the 2396 election so they have to start sharing. Mak, I don't think he's prepared to concede that Taft won't be President. He conceded the point that LBJ might be dead or might never have been born but said that even if it's so the fact that someone who would have once been a coworker of his in an alternate universe will more than compensate for that. Johnson as President of Texas can't be far behind. Gizzi, you really think the US will let the Rebs go after just four years? The Allies held onto Germany for five, and they would have gone much longer but for the fact that they wanted their Germany to be stronger than their rivals' versions, a fact the US is not facing. Even OTL Reconstruction, with the South proving it could be willing to play by the rules within the Union provided it got to keep its racist customs, lasted twelve years. And in 1948, your beloved Sergeant X probably won't even be old enough to be eligible for office. I never claimed to own the rights, Gizzi, and I don't know why you think I did. I claimed the author and publisher own the rights. This is true. A few amateur critics and some unofficial pub site, whatever that is (and I know you can't post links here but if you want us to read it that badly the least you could do is allude to how to find it) whose wishes run contrary to those of the author and publisher will lose. But as usual, you believe the exact opposite of the truth. No wonder you liked Featherston so much. Nietzsche on nothing. Gizzi, Steve now says he wants to let a good thing die, meaning he's changed sides, and Avid Fan, if he ever existed, hasn't been around for a while, so if we leave you to preside over the Delusional Society you'll be talking to yourself. So why don't /you/ go away and let /us/ talk about how the series is over, and come back if you ever come to terms with reality.

Steven posts on 8/8/2007 9:26:02 PM Guys stop it. what the h*ll are you even talking about? Why can't you just let a good thing die as a good thing? why do you have to keep analyzing the freaking books to a point where I'm going insane just reading your posts. Dam you people...
Justin posts on 8/8/2007 7:29:42 PM "Now--my guess is that Dewey, as he steps down, will face a crisis with a strike by the CSA into Texas; that there will be intense debates in Congress, which will highlight Flora as a possible presidential candidate; that Canada has become a haven for USA haters, with backing from a Britain under Mosley (the parliamentary system provides votes of no confidence, but governments and leaders who leave can return); that the CSAccupation has ended after the 48 elections, and its president is the young non-com who talked to Potter." ----- I'm very certain you're just screwing with us now. That's just too stupid a plot for any intelligent person to accept. That's basically a rewrite of The Victorious Opposition and the Settling Accounts series -- you CAN't DENY that it is.
Makkabee posts on 8/8/2007 3:51:11 PM The young non-com didn't even get a name and you're making him president of the CSA? What's even stupider (congratulations, I didn't think you could do that), you're making him president immediately? And assuming the USA will allow the CSA to rearm to the point that they can invade a neighbor after what happened in 1941? And what's even more mind-boggling, you're assuming the hard-line Democrats are the ones who do all this when they ran on a harsh peace platform? Kalkin on a cupcake, you've got to throw out every scrap of motivation and stated intention by every prominent US character to get to that point, and you want to use it as a starting point.

Tell you what, I'll play your game for a moment. Suppose the US withdraws from the south and allows a shrunken CSA to rejoin the family of nations, and that shrunken CSA immediately elects a Featherston-like revanchist president, rearms, and invades Texas. What does the US do in response? They nuke Richmond, Birmingham and Atlanta and reoccupy the southern states before they can build their own nuclear arsenal. Wow. Short novel. The US can't let the CSA get back on its feet because it's as clear as anything that the CSA's #1 priority (now that the blacks have been safely genocided) will be to get revenge and thanks to nukes a small country can thoroughly pummel a big one if it's willing to take a pummelling in return, which of course a man like Featherston would do. And you've already stated that you think our unnamed sergeant is aimed at the Gray House with the same absolute certainty that you've given to Flora Blackford, Joe Kennedy, and Robert Taft (I hope you'll at least concede that that last isn't likely). I actually like the idea of Flora Blackford as president, but I think declaring that it must be so is, well... stupid.

You're playing the wrong game. You want more books, and you're asking yourself how many screw-ups the US has to make so that the CS has anything approaching an even chance for the next round of fighting. When you pile that many more mistakes on one side than the other you get a boring unbelievable book, at least if you have to have that side make exactly the same mistakes they made last time.

That's not how it works in the real world. When people screw up that badly it's usually because they're overcompensating for the opposite mistakes last time out. In the 1880s the US went to war unprepared and got whalloped. In 1914 they went in fully prepared and bent on revenge and won, but at hideous cost. In 1941 they were caught inadequately prepared because they'd spent years trying to avoid a bloodbath like the Great War. The mistake they'll be doing anything to avoid now, including making great whopping new ones, is letting another Featherston rise up and threaten a repeat of 1941, and you expect them to do just that in about a decade. That's really bad writing.

John Gizzi posts on 8/8/2007 2:11:22 PM You don't own the rights either, Jack, and I suggest you read what the reviewers had to say as well as what the pub piece says before you comment. Tell you what: rather than engage in this, let me just simply pick up on a suggestion of an earlier poster: if you don't want to believe another series is forthcoming or you are tired of the book, why not simply refrain for a week and let those of us who do discuss the next series? Surely, if it is good enough for the reviewers and the promo piece, it is good enough for you. Now--my guess is that Dewey, as he steps down, will face a crisis with a strike by the CSA into Texas; that there will be intense debates in Congress, which will highlight Flora as a possible presidential candidate; that Canada has become a haven for USA haters, with backing from a Britain under Mosley (the parliamentary system provides votes of no confidence, but governments and leaders who leave can return); that the CSAccupation has ended after the 48 elections, and its president is the young non-com who talked to Potter.
Jack posts on 8/8/2007 1:49:32 PM 2kule, Gizzi, and now you again? Geez, what is this, amnesty day from the asylum? All we need is a few dozen Nut-Balls to round out the group.
way2eval posts on 8/8/2007 1:13:43 PM Alright so you all know of 2kule, right. That's good, he's my cousin and I need to get him back, see we're having this internet war and he keeps bending the rules. now I can use your help...whenever he post anything here simply say 'OVERALL, GAMED' ok? thanks ya'll I'd really appreciate that.
Jack posts on 8/8/2007 12:45:35 PM Gizzi, I have some very bad news for you. Seven amateur critics on an Internet board do not own the rights to this series. The author and publishers do. Unfortunately, the author and publishers are able to veto your seven ''thoughtful'' friends, not vice versa. As for loose ends, they will always be at the end of a story that doesn't have a ''rocks fall, everybody dies'' conclusion. Is that what it will take for you to give up your untenable position? Because since you still have such love for TL-191, I would think you'd rather accept an ending in which Turtledove still maintained a portion of the creative integrity that made this story so good years ago.
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