Harry Turtledove Message Board
John Gizzi posts on 8/8/2007 12:13:56 PM
Say what you want--the publishers have let openings and, as I said, the reviewers who posted on the IATD pub page (feel free to check it) all, to a person, want and anticipate a continuation. Whatever the author and publishers say about a "conclusion" is hype; if the demand is there, the series will go on. And those "loose ends" you dismiss are all cited by the seven who posted thoughtful reviews as evidence of a Cold War series with more of an international flavor. Please check it out.
TR posts on 8/8/2007 12:01:32 PM
I'm coming to believe that the poster calling himself John Gizzi is some sort of joke at the expense of this board. Or maybe I'm simply naive, but I cannot believe that there is someone so desperate for more books in this series that he'll cite loose ends in the plot as greater value of more books in the series and wholly disregard the stated intentions of the author and the publisher to end the series with the present volume. He must be a crude joke.
Either that, or I must conclude Gizzi is actually a child with a formidible vocabularly. His position that there will be series because there will be sounds like an angry five year old.
John Gizzi posts on 8/8/2007 11:45:53 AM
You know something? If you go on line and check the ads for IATD, both the synopsis as well as the reviews that posted all agree--there are too many loose ends (Utah, Canada, etc.), this book has fans, and another series is what all of the reviewers want.
Makkabee posts on 8/8/2007 12:52:56 AM
"Mosley was Churchill's minister of war and while Winston's government has fallen for now, it can return." Maybe you'd vote for a man who'd led a country into a nuclear holocaust, but I wouldn't. Churchill bounced back after his 1945 defeat because his warnings about the USSR were proving correct and because after all, he'd won the bloody war. That doesn't apply to Mosely.
"Remember, Sir Oswald was considerably younger than his contemporaries in the '30's." So? A 48 year old loser is still a loser.
"The very fact that they discuss the Kaiser, Chruchill, et. al. and both Richmond and Philadelphia have relations with them demonstrates they are important--and will be dealt with in the coming series." No it doesn't.
"Canada is unclear. Just because it faded from the scene after Grimes was wounded makes the point--something very unclear remains." Not every loose end needs to be tied up, you know. If HT thought it was important to do so he would have set part of the last novel in Canada as he'd done with the previous nine. Sad and pathetic that the fact that he loses interest makes you think that he's so interested he'll need a sequel series to cover it.
"CSA can't be armed by other countries, eh? The old Soviet Union did a pretty good job backing client states in the Western hemisphere and in Southeast Asia." Client states -- nations controlling their own borders, ports, airports. Sure, people can smuggle weapons into the southern states, but that's not the same thing as the Korean scenario you were predicting before where China committed major field armies across the Yalu river. You CAN see the difference, I hope? Maybe not.
"There are plenty of countries that have common backgrounds that are just not going to stand for being united with a neighbor. Look at the former Yugoslavia and the former captive nations of Russia." Yugoslavia? The country with six republics, five ethnicities, four languages, three religions, two alpabets, and one Tito? That's your definition of common heritage? Remember that deal about you not saying stupid things? Okay, to be fair you never agreed to that.
"Agreed, Kentucky and some other states--not part of the original CSA that Featherston came to power in--are back in the USA." So you don't think Tennessee was part of the original CSA that Featherston came to power in. Somehow I'm not surprised.
Jack posts on 8/7/2007 9:54:28 PM
Johnson's former House colleague (and you're using the word ''former'' very loosely since this is a different universe and we have no idea, none, whether either of them was ever in the House at all, let alone at the same time) is President of Texas. Can Johnson be far behind? Umm . . . yes? Remind me of the rule that says ''If one member of Congress is ever elected President, all members who were in the same session he was become entitled to hold the same office at a later date''? The US has relations with other countries, yes . . . so? The CS does not have relations with other countries. No one recognizes it. Yet another of your chessmen falls. You say IatD is vastly different from OTL so HT must have more books planned. As Mak says, the point of AH is not to restore the original timeline -- though if you had listened to an earlier post of mine instead of thinking what other details of the series you could get wrong you would see that I suggested that that is exactly what's happened already -- and more importantly it's not different. You have a united US, even though you don't realize that. It hasn't looked so much like OTL since the breakpoint. Other countries have played supporting roles in the past but those roles got smaller and smaller as the series went on, and if we say for the sake of argument that you're right about more books, we can assume those roles will get smaller still. Of course, take them out and the new books get even duller, which is exactly why the series is over. And there's been fascism in this world almost as long as Flora's had a career in national politics. I'd like to make a prediction myself. I predict that the recovery of Special Orders 191 by the Rebs at Frederick will lead to a disastrous defeat of the Army of the Potomac later in the Maryland Campaign.
2kule4u posts on 8/7/2007 8:24:31 PM
You guys are such dork-S you didn't even realize I was talking to YOU, notice how I pluralized the word?...oh sorry forgot, your all too dorky to see that, oh well I guess I'll have to post something else here to keep you poor souls entertained. Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts Idi*ts. YEAH.
Justin posts on 8/7/2007 5:58:15 PM
1) Churchill's government would not return, and neither would Mosley. The United Kingdom is smashed, sir, smashed beyond recognition. Churchill and Mosley were responsible for bringing on a war that saw military disasters in Germany, Holland, and Belgium, and a nuclear holocaust on their own cities. Parliament voted no confidence in them for a big reason, so it's very unlikely that we'll see a return of the coalition government. 2) I can't deny that people have mentioned the Kaiser, Churchill, etc., but to call them "very important to the series" is to ignore how the series is set up. HT didn't write the books about guys in Europe; instead, he wrote a book dealing with an alternate America and had cameo mentions of the Europeans WHENEVER NECESSARY. Thus, whatever happens in Europe is IRRELEVANT to the alternate America UNLESS it's directly related to the plot (i.e., Churchill giving the CONFEDERACY necessary info for building a bomb, British surrender influencing discussion between AMERICANS on when the CONFEDERACY will do the same, etc).
3) Come again: Canada not really being mentioned after Grimes' injury has WHAT to do with a new series?
John Gizzi posts on 8/7/2007 3:38:43 PM
Where do we start? Mosley was Churchill's minister of war and while Winston's government has fallen for now, it can return. Remember, Sir Oswald was considerably younger than his contemporaries in the '30's.
As for other countries, one can call them major or supporting but the USA and CSA certainly didn't operate as the sole nations on earth. The very fact that they discuss the Kaiser, Chruchill, et. al. and both Richmond and Philadelphia have relations with them demonstrates they are important--and will be dealt with in the coming series.
Again, as the previous participant notes, Canada is unclear. Just because it faded from the scene after Grimes was wounded makes the point--something very unclear remains.
The CSA can't be armed by other countries, eh? The old Soviet Union did a pretty good job backing client states in the Western hemisphere and in Southeast Asia. And while we don't yet know if LBJ is alive,we know that a former congressional colleague of his is now president of independent Texas. Can he be far behind?
There are plenty of countries that have common backgrounds that are just not going to stand for being united with a neighbor. Look at the former Yugoslavia and the former captive nations of Russia. Agreed, Kentucky and some other states--not part of the original CSA that Featherston came to power in--are back in the USA. As for the remainder, well, time will tell.
Steven posts on 8/7/2007 3:26:53 PM
kule why don't you just shut up. Sorry can't really post much I'm in a bit of a hurry.
Makkabee posts on 8/7/2007 3:10:05 PM
"The ravanchist element could easily make arrangments with Japan and Mosley's Britain to provide some excitement." -- MOSLEY'S Britain? The Churchill regime of which he was a part fell. It's not his and never was. EVIDENCE!!!
"the reference to the non-com talking to Potter is a not-so-subtle hint we haven't heard the last of the CSA." -- unless you interpret Potter's advice to him to settle down and raise a family as a not-so-subtle hint that it's time to break out of that cycle of revenge and settle down to a peaceful boring not-worth-writing -several-novels -about existence.
"Other countries did indeed play a major role in this North American-based saga--Britain, France, Germany, among them." They played a supporting role. The story of the US-CS conflict didn't take place in a total vaccuum, though HT was vague enough about events outside of North America that it sometimes seemed that way, but the series was still specifically about that US-CS conflict, not the larger global picture. Moses on a matzoh, even Canada dropped out of the narrative after Grimes got wounded and we only heard an occasional passing reference from then on.
"A CSA after Reconstruction, making deals with Japan and Britain, could use that as the cite for an uprising not unlike the Korean War; by 1955," except that the Korean war was not an uprising, no one can supply the CSA with direct reenforcements the way China could North Korea, even if the CSA were to regain independence (something no US character has advocated) it won't be ready for offensive war that quickly, and we don't even know if LBJ is alive let alone destined to rule Texas. Piddling details, I know...
The CSA has "been an independent nation longer than they were part of the US now and any attempt to reabsorb them would be akin to the US having a permanent presence in Iraq today." Only true for parts of the CSA (not Kentucky or the Atlantic seaboard states), and irrelevent even so. Not like Iraq in that common religion, language, ethnicity, and social political and legal traditions bind north and south together in a way the USA and Iraq are not.
"Let's stay on the path that a new series is forthcoming." Yes, let's take your conclusion as a premise. Doing so and using circular logic is the only way we can get back to your point anyway.
"While I would agree that the CSA is under occupation now," Big of you.
"it can't last that long; the economy of the USA wouldn't permit it" You're right. Just because the TL-191 USA has a much bigger economy than the OTL USSR we shouldn't assume that they can carry on an occupation for decades or generations like the USSR did. After all, Britain was too small to hold on to India after the Sepoy rebellion, and India had been independent a lot longer than it had been ruled from London. And the Romans showed how impossible it was to absorb initially hostile populations. It's not like the decendants of the Gauls speak a derivative of Latin today.
"Although it's not in concrete, it appears as though fascism is coming into this timeline--which HT leaves radically different from ours in IATD, yet more evidence of a forthcoming series--after it did in ours" Are you reading the same series? Zarathustra on zucchini bread, what do you think Action Francaise and the Freedom Party were if NOT Fascist? And you apparently haven't grasped this, but the object of alternate history is NOT to restore the original time line (though there are fine individual works where that's the end result). The fact that HT's 1945 is different than ours is proof that he must continue only in the minds of sad delusional little feebs -- not that I'm naming any specific names.
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